Napoleon Series Archive 2008

Re: Holland
In Response To: Re: Holland ()

Please see ....
Title: N`s Satellites and Profit
By:Digby Smith
Date: Saturday, 13. December 2008, 5:52 am
"I cannot locate the posting in which you recently said that Connelly stated that Holland had a cash surplus in its dealings with France"
http://www.napoleon-series.org/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?page=1;md=read;id=98339
From this, one might think that you would wish to know the degree to which the French Empire either extracted cash from Holland or supplied cash to Holland. I did not have the cited work by Connelly to hand, so I sought to provide the actual figures, taken mostly from the "Memoires" of the then-sitting French Imperial ministere du trésoir.

"cash neutral" = neither a source of cash nor a place where cash is being supplied, and hence "neutral".
"cash negative" = a place or activity to which cash is being supplied, and hence "negative" from th epoint of view of the supplier.
"abrogated" = yes, cancelled. Upon consolidation in 1810 the French Empire ceased to service debts of the hosue of Orange or house of Hesse-Cassal (except in the case of certain personal pensions). If you held debts from these two issuers, the French Empire would not pay anyting to you. The level of this indebtedness was historically quite high, as one can see in the linked chart showing Dutch debt service in relation to total expenditures for 1600-1795.

"gobbledegook" = term used to describe nonsensical language, and in context one might take the use of this word as perjorative or even insulting. I am sorry if the plainest financial terms are obscure to you, but it is difficult to answer a financial question without recourse to their use.
"Enron" = connotes massive fraud or illegal personal gain, again in context one might take the use of this name as perjorative or even insulting.
"Lehman" = connotes massive foolishness in investment management, or blind or un-thinking speculation, possibly to include fraud, again in context one might take the use of this name as perjorative or even insulting.

I implore you to be civil, even if I am a banker .... it was an accident, I never intended to become one. Please forgive me.

"Are you saying that cash flowed from France into Holland?"
Yes, after consolidation in 1810. The amounts were as follows :
- maintenance of the Dutch land and naval forces : 32 million francs per year.
Comments : The campaign expenses for these troops had been borne by the Empire for 1806-1810. After conslidation, they would be classed as French Empire troops and all thier costs paid by the imperial treasury. The proceeds from tax collection in the new "Dutch" départements were not programmed to these uses (with the exception of the one-time collections used for coastal defense noted separately). One might argue that Dutch military expense need not have been so high as 32 million francs per year absent the policies of the French Empire.
- the service of some of the debts incurred by the Bonapartiste government (and apparently by the Batavian revolutionary government) : I do not have a firm figure for these, but perhaps total debts of some 450 million francs at par would be about the right level for those serviced by the Empire (recall that 28 million francs per year taken from Dutch tax collections were programmed to service a part of the Dutch debt, and the Orange & Hesse-Cassel debts were just ignored).
Comments : The actual cash disbursement by the Empire for these debts did not rise to their full par value. The first payments, of arrears and then-due amounts, was of course at or near par and amounted to some 40 million francs, funded by a new issue of medium-term French imperial notes. The Dutch debt was trading mostly at 50% of par, so the value at market of the remaining debt to be serivced by the Empire was only was thus perhaps about 200 million francs. The mechanism for servicing this debt was as follows :
- the Imperial treasury would from time to time (before substantial payments were due, of course), buy the Dutch debts in the open market at the 50% discount to par. Conveniently, there were a plethora of issues and rates and maturities, so that such purchases could be nicely optimized.
- to fund these purchases the Imperial treasury would sell from their holdings, from their Treasury stock, French long-term debt instruments that had been previously issued.
- if the term of the effected Dutch debt had an average of 20 years, the rate of these purchases might be something on the order of 10 million francs per year.

To try to get to some estimate (only an estimate) of a "total" :
- Dutch military expenditure 1810-1814 (assuming the other half would not have been needed absent the Imperial policies) : 32 million x 4 or 5 = ~160 million francs
- payment of Dutch arrears at the time of consolidation : 40 million francs
- service of part of the Dutch debt : 10 million x 4 or 5 = ~50 million francs
=====================================
total perhaps 200 to 250 million francs = amount that Holland "cost" the Empire, or about 100 to 125 francs per capita for each Dutch person.

"What about cash flowing in the other direction? "
Nope - whatever Holland paid for the Empire's benefit beofre consolidation was funded with debt that was within the amounts eventually serviced by the Empire after consolidation.

"Westphalia, a state which N systematically plundered into near bankruptcy until mid 1813"
An interesting assertion, if true. Please provide primery/contempory details to substantiate this assertion. Please do not such merely say that such was the summary judgment of some later historian. Please instead provide the actual financial details - the amounts "plundered", how acquired by the French Empire and how used.
Perhaps you might think to start a new thread, for clarity, if you wish to proffer anything beyond a possibly propaganda-laden assertion ?

"Abrogating` H-K`s debts (to whom?) seems to me to be a bit pointless."
I do not have the details, but was there not some small movement of territory from the house of Hesse-Cassal to what became the Dutch Bonapartiste monarachy in 1806 ? I recall some minor re-alignments. I have the impression that this was not a large amount in any case.
Usually treaties and convention stipulated that when you acquired territory, you acquired any debts or obligations of the prior owner.
The "to whom" would be generallly :
- bond and note holders
- pensioners and beneficiaries of a "civil list" or similar
- vendore of goods and services
But I am surprised that no one thought to abrogate the Orangist debt before 1810, which was quite substantial.

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N`s Satellites and Profit
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