Napoleon Series Archive 2013

Re: Bernadotte's Leadership Failure

‘Both on the 12th and 13th, Lannes was being followed by Augereau. FIrst at Saalfeld and then during the heavy skirmishing on the 13th, Augereau 'failed' to support Lannes, though both were definitely 'changes in situation.' The latter after Augereau agreed to support Lannes because he hadn't received orders himself.’

Different situation entirely, and appears to be yet another attempt at the ‘Talavera game.’ Lannes fight with Louis at Saalfeld was not in the same category as what Davout faced at Auerstadt. The fight was short, won by Lannes handily, and I don’t see where Augereau failed to support Lannes.at Saalfeld. If you don’t need to engage, then there is no need to. Lannes had the situations in hand and it seems to me Augereau wasn’t needed in the two actions cited.

The issue isn’t Saalfeld, by the way, it is Auerstadt. Another strawman?

‘Yes, and no one has questioned that. He failed to get into the fight. The question is how this might have 'profited' Bernadotte or constitute abandoning Davout.’

Leaving Davout alone after contact with the Prussians certainly constitutes ‘abandoning Davout.’ If you don’t agree with that, then what is it? Following an out of date order?

‘Because, beyound that one innuendo, all Vachee states is his failure, the slow march and late arrival at Dornburg.’

‘Failure’ is the operative word here.

‘Because you are long on conclusions and really short on evidence.’

You are incorrect here. The evidence I’ve given supports my position and conclusions.

‘Please look at Napoleon's comments. A 'false march' was a poor one, but that doesn't equal the expectation he 'should have' supported Davout. That conclusion also contradicts his other statements clearly stating his expectation that Bernadotte was supposed to be in Dornburg.’

Where did you get your ‘interpretation’ of what a ‘false march’ was/is? Seems to me a false march is one which accomplishes nothing, which was what Bernadotte’s move to Durnburg and then Apolda. And, again, Napoleon wrote to Bernadotte after the 14th that he had ordered him to march with Davout not in the supposedly obedience of an old order that was no longer of any consequence. The ‘orders are orders’ defense of Bernadotte doesn’t really cut it.

‘The III Corps was around 28,930 men at Auerstadt. Soult had 28,960 men at Jena. Of course, Davout didn't have Sahuc, which was part of his corps.’

Sahuc was not part of III Corps-never was. Sahuc’s dragoon division was part of the Cavalry Reserve and had been temporarily attached to III Corps. However, at this point, Sahuc was back under Murat’s command, not Davout’s. The only cavalry organic to III Corps was Vialannes’ light cavalry brigade. Dragoon divisions were not usually, if at all, permanently assigned to French corps d’armee. They were an army asset, not a corps asset.
You might want to revisit your numbers. From all I have seen, Davout had no more than 26,000 at Auerstadt. And Soult’s corps was larger, it had been since the beginning of the 1805 campaign.

‘No he wasn't. It said he 'could' or 'can' march with him, but was expected to be in Dornburg. Your reading of the orders makes a possibility and choice into a direct order that it clearly wasn't. If it WAS a direct order, then there would have been absolutely no reason for Davout to ask him what he was going to do.’

According to Napoleon it was a direct order. Davout probably did not trust Bernadotte, and with good reason as Bernadotte’s reputation for not being a supportive colleague was already established. Hence, Davout asking what Bernadotte was going to do. And if Bernadotte was not going to stay, especially after contact with the Prussians, Davout and his subordinates had a lot of work to do, more so than if Bernadotte would have stayed.

‘Evidence and not another historian's comment in an atlas.. Dornburg was in the opposite direction from Davout's line of march, which the atlas also shows, so any marching with Davout would have been short indeed. Following Davout would have taken him away from what Napoleon was convinced was the main army. Support Davout in a sideshow or attempt to make it to the main event? Maude found no fault in that reasoning.’

What’s wrong with ‘commenting in an atlas’ especially one as accurate and reliable as the Esposito/Elting Atlas. The facts are clearly stated and the conclusions are valid. Your prejudice against atlases is interesting.

Dornburg was not in the opposite direction from Davout’s line of march. It may have been at right angles, at least initially, but your sense of directions here is interesting.

Davout’s initial contact with the Prussians on the afternoon of the 13th should have indicated something important to Bernadotte. It certainly did to Davout, and he was absolutely correct.

Supporting a comrade was more important than what might happen. And Bernadotte demonstrated no haste in his march to either Dornburg or Apolda. Seems to me your argument here is wrong. Your argument here fails.

‘The way it reads in all the accounts I have read is that his corps was on the road to Dornburg AND marching during the night until the orders to Davout arrived, at which point he halted the march [3am]. He continued the march once he made his decision.’

The I Corps was on the road, the end of the column was still in Naumburg. And the corps was halted and Bernadotte was with Davout in Naumburg.

‘It didn't *direct him to do anything* It told Davout what Bernadotte 'could' do and what was expected of him: Be in Dornburg. Any other reading of that missive strikes me as really off. If it had directed Bernadotte to follow Davout,’

Again, you're wrong here. According to Napoleon’s later letter, Bernadotte was ordered to march with Davout, which settles the argument.

‘Again, a conclusion statement and not based on what those men knew at the time or said afterwards from all I have seen, including your evidence.’

The evidence has been shown to you both with primary and secondary sources, none of which you have countered with evidence that negates the conclusions made. Again, you seem to be more interested in giving excuses for Bernadotte’s actions than actually conducting historical inquiry to find out why.

Sincerely,
K

Messages In This Thread

Re: For A Correct View Of Bernadotte At Jena, See
Re: For A Correct View Of Bernadotte At Jena, See
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Barton Map p 148
the cause
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Stephane Béraud volume 2
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Naumburg - Dornburg - Apolda
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Belliard gives us more information
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the missing order
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Re: For A Correct View Of Bernadotte At Jena, See
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Historical Conclusions...
Re: For A Correct View Of Bernadotte At Jena, See
Re: For A Correct View Of Bernadotte At Jena, See
pourriez